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New Post 6/26/2008 8:41 AM
  august
19 posts
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fertility 

Keif,

Thinking aloud some ideas inspired by your piece, and also Saletan's recent stuff on one-child policy:

It seems to me that Malthusian population pressures will provoke a deep rethinking of human rights.  There are questions of death and resources that your piece brings up, but I think the toughest challenge for classical Western-style formulations of rights will center on fertility.   Do we have a right to as many children as we wish?  Under what circumstances could one ethically impose limits?  What kinds of policy would be both just and sensible?  And... at the heart of all politics, who decides? 

Part of the point is optimistic.  We have evolved sufficient reason to understand that "we can make judgements that actually trump the whole functions that a particular system" (in this case, having kids) "is designed to serve" (see bloggingheadstv's Will Wilkerson ).  So beyond travelling to space (more on that in a moment), we can help relieve pressures by simply having fewer children.  There are a lot of things working against this optimistic projection of the future, but to me it remains the best case scenario.  The problem (as I see it) is getting to a world in which most people desire 1 or at most 2 kids in a way that is itself not morally unjust.  True, it's easy enough to support this moral reasoning with existing philiosophy.  Kant's moral imperative, for example, suggests that if my actions (having 2 kids) were applied in general as a moral rule, there would be (1).  no inherent logical contradiction and (2.) a good outcome, or at least a better outcome than the one projected.  Or Mill's idea that you have freedom up until the point when you affect the freedoms of others.  So it's not like you (not you personally, but one) has to invent a bizarre new approach to thinking to make an argument for limited fertility.

Except it's pretty clear you do.  Because it's also reasonable to say that having kids is a right, that limiting a right is itself a harm, and (particularly if you disagree that my "best case scenario" is both possible and optimal), there's no entity that can limit this right without doing harm.  The kind of regime it would require to get people to turn on their instict to procreate would require an awful exercise of power.  It's not at all clear that even China has limited fertility to the extent that it can solve the Malthusian puzzle. 

In general, I think it's hard to convince people of moral obligations regarding acts that are destructive in aggregate across a large population but of small consequences individually.   Cars may pollute the enviornement, but because my car is a small piece of that larger puzzle, my culpability feels small. Using that kind of argument against having kids seems to me a nonstarter. 

I've got to believe, however, that real shortages are going to give new force to that kind of argument.  Population growth is going to make people think differently about bodies (I doubt the post-Roe formulation -- that people has the right to do whatever they want with their bodies --  will survive.  And that makes me very worried about rights in general.  I've been reading a book by Mark Mazower called Dark Continent.  Mazower has persuaded me that there was a time when things like euthanasia, forced migration, and autocracy seemed reasonable to people who thought of themselves as open-minded and progressive. Genocide was a small step further.   People who thought of themselves as good found themselves perpetuating great evil.  I think the conditions that make such points of view seem plausible/attractive/politically viable are fast upon us.  It's a conundrum to me -- how to be on the side of the good. 

Two side points -- 1.  if humans survive long enough, space colonization is inevitable, not only because of population pressure, but also because the earth will not go on forever.  2.  I thought this was truly awesome.

august

 

 

 
New Post 6/26/2008 11:16 AM
  Keifus
388 posts
3rd Level Poster




Re: fertility 

I think a lot of human rights get re-thought as people crowd together, starting with the less fundamental ones.  Here in the US, the second amendment has more difficulty in cities than in the countryside, and its stalwart supporters and objectors are pretty well separated by population density.  Privacy's going down kicking and screaming too.  I've often thought that much of the conservative/liberal divide in this country is based on the fairly selfish desire of rural dwellers to keep their home regions underpopulated...

One thing that I didn't make very clear in the post (I edit them compulsively and yet I find them so hard to reread, so much blather) is that barring immigration, populations in some geographies are actually peaking already.  The reason is that when people are doing fairly well, and the noise and expense of a houseful of kids outweighs the benefits.  People self-limit their fertility in those (and other) situations.  (Marvin Harris, in the book Mike recommended, made the same point: we're more rational about babies than about sex.  He'd have agreed with Mazower, I think, about some issues of moral relativism.)  Frankly, I think it's the only hope civilization as we know it has in the long term...but I don't weigh that well against fighting over the oil and the drinking water.  (Civilization as we don't know it may not be so bad, but I don't like the going from here to there.)

So could population decline with development?  More specifically, will China's?  One of the issues with China's policy as I understand it is that the value of men to society is much better than that of women.  As that gets more arbitrary, that is, as technical success can be achieved by either gender (or is needed by both genders), then does the problem relax? 

(I fear this appears to be putting me in a political position that's not precisely my own.  Let's just say I have some caveats here.)

The thing about space colonizaiton is the resources--it would take a lot of them--but yeah, if we advance far enough to master fusion or the casimir force or some damn thing, then call it inevitable.  I hear they're on the verge of discovering green-skinned alien babes on near-earths. 

And I agree, that was one hell of a takedown.

 

 
New Post 7/1/2008 11:39 AM
  twiffer
401 posts
2nd Level Poster




Re: fertility 

excellent take-down.  and a great time waster too.

 
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