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New Post 4/23/2008 6:41 AM
  august
19 posts
No Ranking


Question for rundeep 

Do you remember a PA election in which results in Pittsburgh and Philly diverged so greatly? 

The usual model has been that the cities and the countryside balance each other out, and the Philly suburbs decide it.  This was totally different.   The Philly suburbs were strong Obama, but he lost badly elsewhere. 

 
New Post 4/23/2008 10:22 AM
  John McG
283 posts
4th Level Poster




Re: Question for rundeep 

Which is also surprising, since you would think that Clinton would have benefitted from Rendell's support more in Philly and the suburbs than elsewehere.

There does seem to be a cultural suspicion of Obama that he hasn't quite dealt with.  I don't know if Ohio and Pennsylvania could go to McCain if Obama is the nominee, but he hasn't managed to connect with certain voters.  It's interesting to watch...

 
New Post 4/23/2008 4:05 PM
  august
19 posts
No Ranking


Re: Question for rundeep 

I've given up trying to understand this election.  How the Republicans got to their best candidate in no time flat (complaining all the way) is beyond me.  I don't understand how Obama surged in the first place.  I understand why he has some weaknesses in the rust belt, but I'd have thought Clinton had the same weaknesses.  I don't understand why anybody thinks that Clinton's Clinton-era baggage will not come back to haunt her.  (What I remember about Whitewater was that there was lots of dirt on Hillary, but a. she wasn't president and b. sex scandals are more headline-grabbing than financial ones.  Hillary's "experience" is that she's an experienced liar.)  I don't understand why you support Obama.  I don't understand why liberal college professors are heavily pro-Obama.  I don't understand why anybody thinks the "you're sexist" "you're racist" shouting match will achieve anything other than make very smart people say very stupid things.  And I don't understand Pennsylvania. 

But I am glad that all this idiocy is moving to another state. 

I think Nutter (black mayor of Philly) also endorsed Clinton.  I don't think endorsements mean much except when counting superdelegates. 

If McCain wins, he'll probably be facing a Democratic congress.  That might not be a terrible outcome. 

 
New Post 4/23/2008 6:39 PM
  rundeep
324 posts
3rd Level Poster


Re: Question for rundeep 

Well, actually Philly and Pittsburgh do diverge in statewide races, but typically only when the candidate is from one side of the state or the other. They are almost never on the same page in Governor's races -- Rendell was an exception. To tell you the truth, I think race played a big role in the divergence this time. Though Pittsburgh is a relatively large city, there are comparatively few blacks there. I had a race discmination case out there once, and I remember wandering around the city at breaks in depositions, looking for the African-American population. Nada. I also suspect (though I don't know for sure) that P-burgh skews a little older than Philly. Fewer colleges, and no direct Northeast Corridor access. If you live in Pittsburgh, the closest other city for a night out on the town is Wheeling, West Virginia. The better choice? Toronto.  In short, though it has some lovely and sophisticated pockets, it's a little more tied to the Rust Belt than Philly, which is a bit more metrosexual.

Obama won most, but not all, of the critical burbs. He lost in Montgomery County, and that margin made all the difference in the state. That is the part of the world most under Eddie Rendell's influence -- a lot of Republicans there changed registration to vote for Ed for Governor. Those people are going to vote for Hillary, even if (or because) they intend to vote for McCain in the general. More than one interview with a local suggested that was the strategy.  I expect Ed wants to be Vice-President. He'll be shortlisted -- she could not have won without him.  Mayor Nutter did endorse her also, but I thought that was pretty obviously because he needs Ed Rendell and does not want to piss him off. Also, he's turning out pretty well as a mayor, and he's a young man still. He could be the first black governor of the state. Not gonna screw that up by going against the prevailing machine.

I do believe that she conceded Philadelphia from the get-go. I have yet to receive a single piece of campaign literature or a phone call from her. I'm so looking forward to that call.

I understand the reason for his surge -- Hillary is viscerally unlikeable, even while you acknowledge her virtues. She's stepped on a lot of toes, too, and there were a lot of people rooting for another candidate. When it looked like he was saleable to a wide demographic in Iowa, the dislike of her which simmers beneath the surface came to the fore. Unfortunately, at least in the case of Pennsylvania, he's black. Rendell called this exactly right in February -- there's a lot of folks in this state who would not vote for a black guy, period.  They'd rather vote for a native daughter, even if they have grave doubts about her. But mark my words -- those people in Scranton who voted for Hillary? They aren't voting for her in the general. They can't wait to vote for McCain. I've had a bunch of calls with relatives there on the topic. Took a lot to get them out of the house to vote for her, but the prospect of a black president was enough. Code words: "we don't trust him, what with that Hussain stuff.

I firmly believe in gridlock when it comes to politics. President and the Congress should never all be of the same party. Nothing good happens then. (See, Exhibit A, Iraq and Exhibit B, economy).  There are many things I like about John McCain, but every time he opens his mouth to discuss the economy my heart sinks. It's just so stupid. Ah well. May your future little one live in less interesting times.

 

 
New Post 4/23/2008 6:52 PM
  Nancy Chase
207 posts
4th Level Poster




Re: Question for rundee 

He didn't lose by that wide a margin in Montgomery County, did he?  Because when I checked before going to bed last night, it was more like 45/55% there (for Clinton) but out Pittsburgh way it was all 30/70% in her favor.  Same with Scranton, Schuykill County, those places - very distrustful of Obama and some of those people rarely even come out of their houses except every four years, and then just vote on name recognition alone.

 
New Post 4/24/2008 5:09 AM
  august
19 posts
No Ranking


Re: Question for rundeep 

Your points about Nutter and Rendell make a lot of sense.  I buy race as explanation  for a good chunk of the result, and I think you must be right about Clinton.   I wonder about race in one respect.   I guess in part it depends on how much you trust the opinion polls.  I was buying the idea that Obama got to within a 5-6% margin and then fell back to 10%.  If there was actual play (and this wasn't just the pollsters getting it wrong), I don't think the shifts can be explained by race. 

Perhaps I'm reading too much into what you are saying (I know nothing about Pittsburgh or Scranton) but might be that folks in Pittsburgh and Scranton still think of themselves as steelworkers even though most don't actually work in steel factories.  (Kind of like France, where most people live in cities but see themselves as tied to the countryside -- hence enormous power of farm lobby).   Race would then be one part of a larger constellation of the Reagan democrat profile.   I think topaz is right about the margins -- I think those margins come fin part from some folks  seeing Clinton as closer to them on trade issues and health care.  And if the economy is foremost in people's minds, Hillary benefits.  If the war again takes center stage, I'd expect some shift to Obama (Jesus that's obvious.  Yes folks, nothing like political commentary from august!  Next week's edition: "It all comes down to who puts the most points on the board."). 

I don't know, maybe I'm just expressing my stereotypes about other people's stereotypes.  But my model would be race as something that works in conjunction with issues.  I guess what I'm saying is, I think Obama does have a solvable problem (around issues and perceptions) alongside his not solvable ones (middle name, being a brother).

 

 
New Post 4/24/2008 6:40 AM
  John McG
283 posts
4th Level Poster




Re: Question for rundeep 

Yeah, I guess if I could sum it up, it's that Obama has to hit his damn free throws.

I think he can do it, I think he will do it, but he still has to actually, you know, do it.

 

 
New Post 4/24/2008 6:44 AM
  rundeep
324 posts
3rd Level Poster


Falling back.... 

You are right the whole thing can't be explained by race, of course. HRC is a formidable candidate and since she is now willing to be a pro-gun, pro-life Christian, that would take Scranton right there. I think though that there is some phenomenon with African-American candidates in this state (or nation). People are willing not to see their color, so long as there's no overtly racial issues. Jeremiah Wright reminded them that he was black. These folks don't take to nuanced speeches on race. They just don't like Wright. I think people who may have previously either voted Obama or stayed at home came out to vote against Reverend Wright.

 

 
New Post 4/24/2008 7:01 AM
  rundeep
324 posts
3rd Level Poster


Re: Question for rundee 

You are right Nancy. He lost Montco by something like 10 points. Not huge, but enough. My husband made a great point last night (maybe he'd heard it elsewhere). Pennsylvania may be second to Florida in age of the population, but the people in Florida are presumably more progressive -- they had the gumption to move there so they could stay more active! So what we have is the old folks who do nothing. An undereducated aged population that sits around and says "get those kids off my lawn!" 

I forget about the state as a whole pretty frequently. My neighborhood went 4 to 1 for Obama. But then we have all our teeth.

 
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